What Did Exactly Happen To Hole’s Bassist Kristen Pfaff, Who Died 19 Years Ago This Month?
Probably because it was her birthday last week, probably because it’s gonna be the 19th anniversary of her death in a few days, people were tweeting about Kristen Pfaff, who played bass for Courtney Love’s band Hole circa 1993-4. May be the fact that Love was again in the news got me interested, and I realized Kristen’s death is, once again, one of these unsolved-mysterious-suspicious cases of the rock ‘n‘ roll world.
Officially, she died from a heroin overdose and her friend Paul Erickson found her dead, on June 16th, 1994, locked in her bathroom with some drug paraphernalia on the floor. The last person who saw her alive was Hole guitarist and boyfriend Eric Erlandson, who visited her the evening before. The police declared it was an overdose, but once again, things don’t exactly add up.
First, Kristen had just completed drug rehab, wanted to start over and had decided to move to Minneapolis with Erickson; a packed Uhaul was even ready outside. She was fed up with Courtney Love and she wanted to leave Seattle’s drug scene, a very sane decision for an ex-heroin addict. But was it a relapse nevertheless?
Her parents have never accepted the version of the police, and Kristen was really upset with Courtney, admitting to a friend, ‘Courtney’s scary. If I take a hike, she’ll make me look bad or do something to make my life miserable.’
Other quotes from Love to Pfaff such as ‘You fuck my guitar player, constantly make eyes at my husband and now you’re telling me how to sing. Just don’t fuck with me because you’ll regret it forever’, reveal a harsh tension between the two women.
After Kristen’s death, her mother discovered that pages out of her diary had been ripped out, and the pages missing were the ones corresponding to the week when Kurt Cobain was missing, just two months before her death.
And to add to the story, Kurt and Kristen were close friends and Kurt once said to Dylan Carlson ‘She’s a fucking talented musician, she’s also a beautiful soul. I think she’s so beautiful, but if I ever told her that, and Courtney found out, it would be hell’
So Kristen was terribly afraid of Courtney (also confirmed by her mother and her brother Jason Pfaff) and became very depressed when Kurt died. She wanted to leave Hole and Courtney Love, just as Kurt wanted to leave Nirvana and his wife, as it has been reported in many books about his death. As a matter of fact, he had just bought two one-way airplane tickets, and many have speculated he wanted to leave with his new girlfriend, who may have been Kristen? Who knows?
Kristen’s autopsy was conveniently performed by Dr. Nicholas Hartshorne, Love’s long time friend, who had already done the autopsy on Kurt and had declared it was a ‘classic suicide’.
There is much more info circulating around websites and message boards about this very fishy story,… What did Erlandson exactly do this evening? Even more troubling, C. Love declared this to Rolling Stone in December 1994,: ‘I had to go over there and get Eric away from the body. Kristen had been his lover for a really long time. He’d already broken down the bathroom door after bathroom door for her.’ Why was she there with Erlandson if it was Paul Erickson who discovered Kristen’s body?
People will say that this story is once again about the same old conspiracy theory, saying that Courtney Love was involved in Kurt Cobain’s death, but facts are facts, Kurt and Kristen were found dead 2 months apart in similar circumstances, both locked inside a room, their systems full of heroin. And both wanted to leave Courtney Love. Troubling? Just coincidences?
In any case, this is once again very depressing to see that the police refused to do a proper investigation, they declared it was an overdose because Kristen had used heroin in the past, and nothing else will ever be done. Captain Dan Bryant of the Seattle Police Department’s narcotics section said ‘Pfaff’s case is not being investigated by the narcotics division because it doesn’t review drug overdoses, which is how Seattle police have categorized the case’.
‘Unless we had someone who knew her and was willing to testify and work with us, we really have nowhere to go’…. How familiar does it sound! Why are sad stories repeating themselves over and over?
159 Comments
There is less circumstantial evidence on Forensic Files that convicts the common folk criminal of 1st or 2nd degree murder and manslaughter with a more loose motive than what happened in the Cobain/Pfaff murder/suicide/accidental overdose? case.
HOLE was nothing before and after Kristen Pfaff and Kurt Conain. Lyrically and musically, the album, LIVE THRU THIS, was brilliant and could never have been that dynamic without the influences of Pfaff and Cobain. Their collaborative creative genius throughout the album is obvious.
I cannot understand why in the hell SPD refuse to reopen and thoroughly investigate both cases, as opposed to revealing mere Polaroids.
Again, it seems rather blatant that these deaths were tied together and not mutually exclusive as they were treated.
Oh, yeah let’s create a musical about this like a damn slide show circus event, rather than tell the unadulterated truth, CL.
Yeah, totally agree. It so fishy.
the reason why the SPD called her death suicide is the same reason they supported the idea that cobain died of suicide even thought all the evidence did not support that, the reason they called their deaths a suicide is because don cameron and perhaps other key people of power in the SPD took a piece of the cobains estate for themselves. courtney bought cameron, who was corrupt, and perhaps some other key person, and the rest of the police are in a culture of supporting their superiors, following orders, and the SPD was part of the conspiracy to murder kc and steal his money. corrupt policemen like cameron were enabled by a predators like courtney and the person she hatched this up with, dr. hartshorne, the medical examiner who was a friends of courtney’s. he also determined pfaff’s death to be a ‘classic case of suicide’. the SPD are corrupt conspirators and subordinates who simply colluded with the conspirators because they were following orders which is what their job is supposed to be. if you don’t follow orders you can lose your livelihood, pension, future and etc.
Correct! The Hole albums before and after Live through this SUCK
Soaked in Bleach can still be found on the Pirate Bay for anyone who is interested in looking into this further …amazing doco
Its all a coverup. Look at statistics. People who are high on heroin do not follow through with the urge to kill themselves. This just doesn’t happen. I work in the medical field and can definitely support this theory.
thank you
Stop and think about Frances. That’s her mom your taking about. She will very hurt, only she deserves the truth. Only his daughter deserves the truth.
Your username kind of gave me chill bumps. 😶
Country love may think she got by with murder with no consequences. She also might feel like she cant be touched and she got off scott free, but she will most definitely pay for her sinister actions in the long run. There is consequences for taking the life of another human being even if it wasn’t by your own hand. Her soul will pay.
And on youtube
Soaked in Bleach is also on YouTube
Facts… I totally 100% agree… it is sickening
I agree w/you! A screenplay needs to be written. Let’s put that nasty ass Courtney love trial through the public courts. It’s insane how she just slipped through the cracks. I can’t believe she had that much pull in the spd or was she just that lucky?!?!?
She was a police informant, perhaps that opened the doors to this whole plot ?
I don’t understand. There is so much evidence against love that they didn’t do nothing. We even know they were killed. How can they not know. Murder is forever, but yet they do nothing. Why didn’t the FBI step in?? We all know they were paired off, the police by love. It sickens all of us, what happened to them. I hope whomever love told will stand up one day and tell the truth. You know she had to tell someone. It’s sad that his own parents also have done nothing. His daughter also, she has enough money to reopen it. Her and her mother like the beauty of money even at kurts behalf. So sad. The ones responsible will rot in hell in the end. Just wish we could sell their hell on earth now.
What if she is the daughter of Billy? She had many surgeries to look like Kurt
This is the damndest thing, Kurt , Kristen having the same inept Coroner coincidentally ruling on both of their CODs.
Interesting how tied in with the police Ms.,Coutney actually was. He was not an expert in suicides but named these two as classic self – inflicted deaths. Nikolus Hartshorne did not even do a toxicology test on Kristen, who supposedly died of a drug overdose when she had only come back to Seattle to retrieve the rest of her belongings.
Courtney must have paid this coroner a big whack of money or perhaps in other ways but it all stinks.
The SPD too, what the hell kind of amateur racket is going on there?
Both of these talented, wonderful people were in the process of leaving Courtney.
Both of them were brought into her seedy circle with much pestering & insistence until they gave in.
Kristen & Kurt had a deep bond & truly admired each other’s talent & souls.
Kourtney knew it & she was insanely jealous & she treated them with the same raging threats & demeaning insults.
The very idea that Kristen went near drugs willingly is bunk.
She was clean & was being driven back to Minneapolis with her friend sleeping out front in the U- haul.
Kurt was hiding from Kourtney as she had found out he was divorcing her & she would get no money.
The intervention,half of whom were heroin addicts, & the electrician who was pre- scheduled by Coutrney to put security in a greenhouse they never used so he would see Kurt’s body through the window while she’s called a PI knowing Kurt was dead in there is such a clincher.
Funny how with all her lawless antics, paying to have people beaten up since her teens, her violence & her blatant drug use
she has never once done a day in jail.
And Cali DeWitt, her heroin- addicted Nanny to Frances now runs a successful co.in Los Angeles called ‘True Love.’
Works with Kanye West & the upper echelon.
This whole ‘suicide’ theory reeks & reflects Courtney’s truly evil embodiment of greed & manipulation.
Say a hit hitperson forced both Kurt and Kristen at gunpoint to shoot themselves up with fatal doses of heroin, how did they escape both times with both the greenhouse and bathroom locked from inside? I’m genuinely confused. Even if an escape route was found via window etc, surely prints would be left by the killer? Can someone explain? Thanks!
they were the push / twist button kind, many of us have accidentally (or intentionally) locked a bathroom door from the inside and then pulled it shut from the outside. both the locks in the greenhouse and bathroom were this type, the prints from cobains gun werent even checked until a month after his death(incidentally there were no identifiable prints). do you belive the spd was dusting for prints on either scene if they decided it was a suicide? they always dust for prints on tv, but it rarely ever happens in real life, without just cause.
Not to mention she put a hit out on frances beans ex boyfriend for leaving her. She never faced charges for anything. She is like an untouchable mob boss
What brought me here was the documentary Soaked in Bleach…It never dawned on me until I watched this that Kurt and her died so close together…The first thing I thought was…”Hmmmm…Courtney thought they (Kurt & Kristen) were messing around…he bought two tickets from Delta Airlines 5-6 days prior to his death…he wanted to leave Courtney….Kristen died the same way Kurt did, with the exception of the gunshot…Yeah, something smells funky..” What is really insane about the doc is the PI Courtney Love hired to “find Kurt” when he was “missing” recorded every conversation he had with Love and if that, in itself, isn’t enough to re-open his case, I don’t know what will….As Amy said, I’ve seen people on Forensic Files, Cold Case, and other real crime shows go to jail on less evidence than the evidence that Kurt Cobain’s “suicide” is anything but….
I’m with you Kim. I’ve thought ill of Kurt for 20 years but since SIB, and some other reading, I’ve decided he was murdered for cash. I’m not sure if it was Carlson, Dewitt or Wrench, but I’m certain Ms Love was the brains behind it and the main beneficiary as we all know.
Ive thought it was fishy but o ly thing about cobains death is if a murderer was there to kill him, wudnt it have been easier and less worrysom of what could be determined if he just slipped out after plunging a shit ton of H in him, not to mention he wud be goin there on a blind bet that kurt happend to have went and got ammo for that shotgun himself, who does that? Who plans a murder w a gun thats not w him and w ammo kurt had to buy himself?
Easy. “Someone” was there making sure Kurt got a buttload of H but maybe wasn’t responding to the overdose or thought maybe he won’t die, went and found his gun, “helped him hold gun in a way to look like he shot himself. He was probably passed out but breathing. Examiners can speculate time of death and guess which thing happened first, but sometimes it’s a guess, they can only estimate a lot of times when no witness. Hell if someone looks at the clock wrong or disagrees on the right time, the time can be recorded wrong. I have SEEN it happen when in the room with someone who died. I worked in a nursing home. Seen it many times and in hospital too! Easy to write down whatever time and they just take the nurses eord for it! Not even when they died, it’s recorded as the time doctor or nurse checks pulse and no response. Just general info . I don’t know the details of Kurt’s death or Kristen. Just sayin’
Wrench answered your question in a video clip speaking “hypothetically”. In order to inject someone against there will, one would have to render the victim defenceless by knocking them out with a hit or punch to the head or face so even if the injection was successful and caused a fatal overdose, they would have to do something to hide any bruising or evidence of a head contusion which fully explains why his head was blown off using kurts shotgun.
Kurt was found with another drug in his system, a muscle relaxer. If this muscle relaxer was slipped into his Coca- Cola he would be passed out. One could sneak up on a person who is drugged into a coma and overdose them with a couple lethal injections of herion
His head was not blown off. His face was not unrecognizable for 2 reasons. A 20 gauge was used, much less forceful than.a 12 gauge and secondly there was no exit wound. I don’t believe Cobain committed suicide. If you have questions, watch Soaked In Bleach and the BBC documentary about Kurt’s death.
Someone with intimate knowledge. Someone close that Kurt trusted… I believe that person was Dylan Carson. Does anyone else find it strange how they acted together throughout this whole week? And the fact she paid his rent for years afterwards? Out of the kindness of her heart I suppose… ? I don’t believe Dylan actually killed Kurt. Just bought him dope and shot him up more than he expected to incapacitate him and then let whomever actually pulled the trigger (Wrench or Cali Dewitt IMHO) Thats how I see it going down with CL orchastrating the whole thing. Loose ends got tied up fast. Just curious if we ever know for sure…
occoms razor says cali dewitt and Allen wrench. Cali and kurt were on the outs, cali had nothing to lose and everything to gain. drug addicts are desperate. You’ll get your courtney
I agree and thought the same thing, that Dylan “helped” Kurt ”kill” himself, maybe acting like they were going to do some H together and Dylan hit Kurt up and while Kurt was “nodding” Dylan placed the gun and placed Kurt’s hands where they would be if he himself was actually going shoot himself, then pulled the trigger, the casing shoots up to the right (where Dylan was potentially) but the casing hit Dylan instead of landing to the right of Kurt it bounced off Dylan and landed to Kurt’s left! Dylan, not being a firearms specialist or a forensic scientist had no way to know that the casing would NOT LAND ON THE LEFTwithout something or someone being the springboard for the bullet causing it to land in the WRONG -lace! BIG RED FLAG THERE!So… then Dylan places the prewritten note given to him by Courtney, puts all the drug paraph. neatly away RED FLAG 2! , wipes EVERYTHING down (RED FLAG 3 no prints ANYWHERE????) lol! Then leaves and later when Grant comes to “look” for missing Kurt” Dylan totally STAYS AWAY FROM & never even MENTIONS that there is such a place as a “greenhouse” because,,,, bingo, KURT IS ALREADY THERE AND DEAD! (RED FLAG 4) and Courtneys’ sudden need for “GREENHOUSE LIGHTING & SECURITY *after* Kurt is dead and has been there for a couple or three days…. Courtney NEEDS SOMEONE to *find* Kurt before it really gets to be ugly, I won’t gp into details! The security man was sent there deliberately to *find* Kurt! ( RED FLAG ) and I could go on and on with a stack a foot high of “red flags”! Lol! The cops were DeFInItElY cRoOkEd or Really REALLY S T O O O O P I D! (correction; stupid) lol! Ok…. I’m finished running off at the mouth no! Lol
Oh, and…My hubby thanks you all here for absorbing what would have been his 15 minutes of having to listen to me ramble on! lololol! Ramble On….Wasn’t that a Zeplin song? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAmIuTI4wRg&list=RDEAmIuTI4wRg&start_radio=1&t=0 There it is! Enjoy!
Great point!! If Courtney was involved though she knew about the shotgun and shells and where they were. After Rome, she likely wanted to make sure that Kurt was dead and she would have told “the killer” where the gun was. I realize this is less likely than your scenario but it does offer a reasonable explanation. The way Courtney was seemingly “coordinating” events at their home from L.A. is suspicious. I think she hired Grant hoping he would find the body. She hires him even after Kurt was seen at home by Cali DeWitt and girlfriend. She never told Grant that. When she fails to lead Grant and Dillon to the body she just happens to hire an electrician to install security cameras right at the spot where Kurt’s body was found?. Then there’s the “practice handwriting” in Courtney’s backpack. 1 or 2 coincidences is understandable but there are a lot of coincidences just involving Courtney in this case. She knows the coroner, she has the shotgun melted down, she has the death scene destroyed? All of that without even getting to the ‘suspicious” death scene. There were no fingerprints on the gun. Could he have been functional enough to operate the gun? No prints on pen. It just goes on and on.
She didnt have the shotgun melted. Not that I am sticking up for her. I believe the cunt is guilty, however the gun is still in tact.
The answer is. They had a lot of time to stage this. The person had their own pistol of course but after searching the house and finding his gun, why not use it and make it look even more like a suicide plus, they didnt know how much H it would take to kill him so for good measure, BANG..
PASTOR TROY….another point is Curt did not want a F-up if he tried to kill himself ie he did not want the gun to mame him, cripple him or deform him but not kill him ..it happens even with powerful shotguns: and he had bird pellets in case he had to fire in the air ‘at’ fans trying to get into his yard…he did not want to really hurt them …so a ;ethal dose of herion was first incase the gun did not kill him by itself…seems he really wanted this to work IF he killed himself and no finger prints can occur on shot guns sometimes just naturally plus it was determined that the weather under the circumstances can smear and fog the prints on a shot gun….after all ehy remove prints intentionally if you killed him? then everyone will say he was murdered? all you gave to do is press his prints on the gun…if you feel no thourah investigation will be done most likely…that would do….i believe the weather fogged off those prnts…it looks biased on the he was murdered side, when this fact is left out all the time ie that yes indeed weather can do that on a shot gun under these circumstances…..this DOES NOT mean he was not murdered but without admitting to any evidence to the contrary it ooks like biased thinking and we see that all the time in this case. on all cases rather it ends up murder or not there are things that sway you to the other side in your ubcestifation o the facts as we know them …soeven in a case that ends up being clear cut murder admitted to by the killer, there will have been things that made them look innocent too such as things that may have helped the theory that the victim killed themselves…the fingerprints were not there due to simple chemistry concerning weather and the material the dun is made of in those particular circumstances in the room ….and yes indeed a person can be very very thorough if killing themselves it doing 2 lethal methods at the same scene…to make sure they die and to make sure if the gun mames them or cripples them or deforms them but does not kill them…the herion will….it’s not that hard to understand that….it made sense….again this does not mean the poor man was not murdered Goddess/ God love him…but the side that believes he was nurdered might have to admit to these things to be correct or when people learn these possible answers to why there were no prints and why he may gave chosen to do 2 methods of killing himself…well, leaving these possible explanations out on purpose, as is done all the time…looks biased itself. .and can turn anyone off to the murder theory they propose.
ooppppsss i cannot find my glasses so i messed the comment up with typos i apologize.
Fingerprints last a LONG time on metal. I once had my car tires stolen in Brooklyn, The police identified the tires in a chop garage around half a mile away from the location of the incident based on the model TWO WEEKS later. Fingerprints were still on the tires and the tire thief was arrested.
Kurt’s body was found a few days after he died, so the fingerprints wouldn’t disappear unless the shotgun was wiped. So that’s one point debunked.
As for your other theory of two ways of suicide. It’s IMPOSSIBLE, and here’s why… If he overdosed first, THREE TIMES the lethal dose, he wouldn’t have been able to move a muscle, let alone roll down his sleeve, put the syringe back in the box, and then grab a shotgun in the most awkward position and shoot himself, then have the shell somehow travel to the wrong side of the chamber.
It was Allen Wrench, el duce exposed him. Now el duce is dead.
I watched sib and I think rosemary had something to do with it as well
I just read that an early job of his was assisting in distributing royalties to other prominent musicians, so he would see the benefit of a “suicide” as opposed to a divorce.
The only thing when it comes to Courtney’s pay day is any life insurance is void if the insured individual commits suicide… That doesn’t mean I don’t Courtney is an evil monster. She’s a textbook narsistic sociopath with borderline personality disorder. There still comes a day were she’s going to suffer for her sins, I’d buy a ticket to see that.
I came here because of the same reason. It’s pretty mind blowing how they just decided not to investigate ever.
This wasn’t investigated Because police are either corrupt or inept.
Any fool can See both these cases are murders.
There are other people close to this that died mysteriously …CC did it or hired the killers either way She is deeply involved in this.
She’s a jealous druggie skank and she had them killed…I do hope this case is reopened and a qualified investigation is done.
Funny, friend of mine went to spd to examine kirsten’s file. Even the officer in charge was surprised to find NOTHING relating to her death, just disappeared…
Kurt got married in pyjamas … as if he could not care less, no effort whatsoever. For a person with genuine empathy towards others, it screams out so loud, like a very awkward, young-dumb-full-of-cum-love to me. Time eventually showed him what a cheap noise he got attracted to … It would be so interesting to see what Kurt could have been as a person and musician if he would have had the chance to grow old . I gennuinly wish for SPD to re-open the investigation.
SPD and other govt agencies in Washington are permitted to destroy records after six years. A law firm that had requested the file was able to retrieve a copy, but this was back in 1997. There’s a letter in the Cobain file from Norm Stamper to the law firm mentioning that they have included partially redacted files for Kristen.
tnzigs comments below seem to have been overlooked, but they are saying there is a way to get material from kristens file.
RIP Kurt and Kristen, both murdered and their deaths made to look like suicides. And both wanting to distance themselves from Courtney. Even down under here in Australia this smells like a conspiracy to kill 2 people, and get away with murder. Let’s hope that Seattles new mayor and police chief will re open both cases, discover the truth, and let justice win out.
Burn seattles po dunk back woods police department down along with the investigators and police forces and coroner’s involved in these cases. Burn email all. Fuckin nazis.
Watch Soaked in Bleach it completely explains Courtney Love’s motive. Kurt Cobain wanted a divorce from her not only did he write it in a separate letter to Courtney he wrote it in his last song recorded in January 1994. You know you’re right’s original lyrics are as follows:
I will never walk it through.
I could never promise you
This complaints follow due
I will never wanna chew
Does this mean I’ll love again
guess I’ll never have a fan
This is me on layaway
I could never have a say
It’s a neverending dream
I will always wanna flee
If I’m me you’ll never know
Everything I’ve ever known.
DreamX4
It’s in every point of view
look at me when I was you
I COULD NEVER DIE AGAIN
I won’t lose another friend
she will see another me
when I’m through melting……
obviously about Kurt leaving Courtney for his new found SOBER Love.
I haven’t seen the Soaked In Bleach thing but has anyone looked into anything about the coroner guy at all? I’m talking like bank statements and those types of things after the deaths? I don’t know how that would even be allowed, having a close friend of the deceased’s wife do the autopsy for a questionable death. That in itself should be more than enough reason to open a case back up.
Exactly. No brainer! Those police are scared or. cL gave one hell of a BJ besides money?
Courtney is worth hundreds of millions of dollars. Remember OJ? Money talks, bullshit walks. That nirvana money bought her silence and immunity. Noone is reopening shit. RIP kurt and kristen.
Funny oj and Courtney have the same birthday.
Shut the front door!!! Are you f**king serious here, that’s nutter butters. Two psycho path controlling stalker jealous s.o.b’s makes sense
I just can’t believe that the entire f***ing world just ate up all the things Courtney said about Kurt in those final months, weeks, days. I mean the things about him being suicidal. She planted that idea in the world’s head. And I love that she thinks she had the power to make him want to die (if you watch “Montage of Heck”, another recent Cobain doc, she says he tried to kill himself in Rome because she simply THOUGHT about maybe cheating on him. She says she didn’t act on the opportunity and didn’t say anything about, but Kurt somehow knew and immediately decided he wanted to die because he couldn’t bear the thought. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.) I cannot stand Courtney Love for a lot of reasons. In fact, I’d say I despise her. Moreso, I cannot stand the injustice. Why aren’t more people upset about this? I’ve read all the comments everywhere: anywhere from people saying, “Let it go. He’s dead. Nobody cares anymore. It’s not the 90s” to “this is simply a smear company against Courtney Love.” Well, the truth really can smear a person, I guess. That’s what gets me most: this is EVIDENCE of the possibility of murder. Not just hearsay, not just circumstantial bullsh*t. It’s enough to reopen this case. Suicide beyond reasonable doubt?
I agree! I just saw Montage of Heck and Soaked in Bleach. Case needs reopened!
Your so right, I’m not some obsessed cobain fan. I am however a fan of his music. Like you I have read and seen many things about this. All indications point towards foul play. NOT To Be indepth But A Shotgun Wound To The Head should Have Been a Very messy Seen. There was only blood leaking from his ear? We have 3 2 liter bottles of blood in us , there should have been close to that amount and spatters of blood. The shotgun bullet never penetrated utter bullsh*t. No fingerprints, that alone should have been a huge red flag. I guess money really does talk. Smh
He was also left handed. He is holding the shotgun like someone who is right handed.
He was right handed FFS
No. He was born left-handed and was taught to write with his rght hand. This happened to me, too, and it’s why i’m now ambidextrous. He had so much trouble finding left handed guitars for himself that Fender made one for him. He played a bit with his right hand, but far more with his left hand. It’ll take you 5 seconds to Google this.
I thought that too, but later on I saw a footage with him signing a paper ( his autograph ? ) right handed tho.
I think he was murdered somewhere else and his body was put in the greenhouse after the fact, and staged to look a certain way. There should have been blood splatter if he put the shotgun in his mouth and all that heroin would have incopasitated him and that needle would of still been in his arm, not neatly but back in his little box of utensils. The scene doesn’t match the crime, oops I meant “suicide” How stupid do they think we are. First and foremost, we have so much love for Kurt, Secondly, Courtney is a fucking monster, look how much evil she’s committed in her life, her own father doesn’t even think she has any redeeming qualities, Third, how could you leave your own daughter without a father who loved her more than anything and was his Pride and Joy?? Last, how is it possible to feel so threatened by anyone that was in Kurt’s life that murder was the best solution you could think of, and also put so much time and effort into planning for quite some time how to do it while sickeningly trying to play the devastated widow right in time for your album to drop? All press is good press, right you crazy murderous bitch?
the explanation about the shotgun is simple: he used bird pellets which are very small and cannot always and almost never penetrate the thick skull we humans have ie a 2 by 4 ….the bird pellets were used by Curt so as not to kill birds but to shoot near anyone trying to get into his yard but not risking hurting them …he did not want to harm anyone just scare them ie a fan trying to get into his yard. he may have been murdered nit always in this case people who do documentaries etc leave out these very easy real answers.. why do they do that if they HONESTLY believe the poor man was murdered? you are not to blame: you are going by what they say or more to the point leave out ….he may have been murdered but few can believe that theory because that side is always cherry-picking evidence and knowing lying by what they leave out on purpose. that looks so bad when you find out the simple explanation to most of the things they bring up and claim have no answer ….like i said this is not your fault at all …i too came across the same things you did….all the time…but if it was murder they are messing up the case more than anyone by cherry-picking and intentional omissions that easily explain things they point to as proof of murder and as very specious. they end up looking specious. anf i realize some of it is being overly intent on proving murder that they may honestly believe occured…but when they leave out simple true answers and possible good answers that pint to suicide they are being way too biased in their presentation of possible murder. this does not help there case and if he was murdered…it does not help the truth.
I grew up hunting on a farm and even bird shot would shoot three a car door at close range not doubt the muzzle velocity alone at point blank with no pellets would kill you and definitely destroy the skull
I agree. I think all the fans here and believers would have to put together some class-action complaint or petition? with signatures on a page to the highest up person or federal person over police commissioner to say we demand justice. They obviously won’t listen to just family members or a few friends. Who’s gonna organize this? 🙂 it can’t be an internet complaint it has to be on real paper delivered in the mail like an affidavit.
if you care, please respond to let know you are active..!
This is a war of truth and obstruction of juctice…
There is yet another piece of this reprehensible end to grunge.
There was:
Mia Zapata, strangled to death July 1993
Valentina Dececco, strangled to death February 1994
Kurt Cobain, (20-30x) overdose and shot in face April 1994
Kristen Pfaff, (20-30x) overdose June 1994
The first two convicted by the same perpetrator, Jesus Mezquia.
He was only convicted in 2004. It should be noted he was pulled over in Seattle, summer of 94, and escaped further questioning with merely a traffic violation. He was a known drifter, coming to the US from the Cuban Embargo and was only in Seattle 1992-1994. There is more on him and his predatory actions.
Valentina Dececco was not murdered. In fact, she gave a false, made up “testimony” of being attacked by the man who was accused of killing Zapata. She just wants her name linked with famous people because she didn’t have the talent to make it in the music business. She is homeless and living on the streets of Seattle.
she may have wanted to help convict the killer who almost got off…amyway ur might be wise to show compassion : nearly all homeless girls/ women are suffering effects of sexual child abuse and mental health issues for that and being bland for it. what i always admired about Curt was his compassion and empathy but thank you for the info on these women. i feel for both….I’m just releived that the woman who was murdered finally had her killer caught. i remember her case and feeling so nad for her …to have her promising life ended and so torturously.
please accept my apology for the typos…can’t see…can’t find my glasses
yeah i dont think i would put mia zappatas name in anything regarding the end of grunge lol
Very interesting
Why in the HELL was Courtneys friend allowed to autopsy both? That alone is Damn suspicious! Courtney got away with double murder!
Whenever they was a young adult, he told everybody he would have been a professional bettor.
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Three people dead involved with this case…hmmmm…sounds like foul play to me!
CL is a professional murder. Not with her own hands but clearly with money. Paying junkies to kill junkies. Easy enough :(. Just use people with no credibility (due to addiction) and spin whatever tale about them you’d like. If this case isn’t reopened and polygraphs dished out I’ll lose my mind. Seriously SPD, do your job!!!!! Nobody in this case is a “stand-up” human but justice is justice! Possibly why they won’t reopen. Why waste the resources digging for the truth on a few junkies? Why reopen a case that was obviously mishandled? Why let the people that mishandled it just resign? KC + KP deserve some justice. Even if they were a couple of users. Clocks ticking…
i will say this…there are many nice people who smoke but it kills more people each yr than all forms of death combined…many are non smokers killed by second-hand smoke and that does not include the vast vast suffering from illnesses due to the smoke of others ruining the health of those who chose not to smoke but smoke is poured into their yards/ homes/ bodies…but they are not hated as worthless…so why a person addicted to herion ? etc? ….most of the girls were sex abused as children and many are victims starting as children, of sex trafficking etc…and many are murdered…more than we know because when found dead no one cares and throws it down as another dead worthless addict….shame on that attitude.
Courtney was laughing on the howard stern show when asked about what her thoughts were on kurt and courtney documentary and why doesn’t she sue. She then went on to say that it would open her up in court to be liable. If I were being accused of murdering my husband and slandered all over the media; I would definitely open up lawsuits because I would have nothing to hide. Liable to what, Courtney?
I’m just glad to see recent comments. I just watched SIB as well and started researching. I saw Kurt and Courtney when it first came out but thought it was a bunch of bs and went with the suicide story for Kurt. Enough talk about this could maybe get the case reopened? It’s pretty obvious both were murdered.
Funny, the Seattle police department has NO file or case number on Kirsten’ s case. When they, SPD, were recently asked for it, the were amazed to not having the file or case number….
I hadn’t even heard of this movie until reading this site, but I’ve long been convinced that Love had Kurt Cobain murdered for money – there’s no doubt at all that he was leaving Love, the ONLY suicidal ideations on Cobain’s part come from Love — even the doctor in Rome who treated him for his supposed ‘suicide’ attempt said that he was convinced there was no suicidal intent whatsoever. So why does everyone believe Love? Everyone who knows her says that she is a pathological liar; she lies even when there is no reason to. So, again, why does everyone take on faith her statements that Cobain was suicidal when there is zero evidence to support it?
There are many things that convinced me Cobain did not commit suicide and anyone on this site likely knows all the discrepancies already. But, the bottom line for me was the lack of fingerprints on the gun and on the pen Cobain used for his supposed ‘suicide’ note. Dead men don’t wipe their fingerprints off the instrument of their death. Period. That alone should have been a huge red flag for Seattle PD.
And look at what Love did as soon as Cobain was dead — spent thousands of dollars recreating herself to be the plastic barbie that she and Cobain supposedly loathed. I remember seeing the new “improved’ Love everywhere — she must have paid millions for the exposure she got after her complete surgical do-over. Of course, she’s such a slag, in the end, it doesn’t matter. She’s a hot mess and nobody, absolutely nobody, will so much as admit to sleeping with her because they are so shamed by it.
Love wanted to be beautiful, but she sold herself to Cobain as something entirely different. From her perspective, he needed to be dead, not just so she got control of the money, but also so she could make herself into the type of woman that Cobain detested. And she was, IMO, blatant about how she went about making him dead. Stunning that these discrepancies were simply ignored. Stunning also, the sickeningly self-serving “montage of heck” and all the critical kudos, despite the lack of Grohl’s presence in the film, and the fact that pretty much everything is filtered through the lens of the woman that, by all accounts, appear responsible for Cobain’s death. This isn’t a conspiracy theory in the manner that most are — Kennedy’s death and so forth. With those, there were unanswered questions. There really are no unanswered questions in Cobain’s death; even the hired killer and the manner of payment are known and have been publicized. Kristen’s death is just one more of a piece. How many of Love’s enemies have to die from overdoses before somebody starts taking this seriously?
Great post and thoughts.
Well written and thought out comment, nice, what was the manner of payment though, and to whom?
Well said
Great post! Soaked in Bleach is so solid that is sad to watch because it confirms something that always seeemed obvious. I wanted to share something that really gives me the chills; if you visit the private twitter account for Courtney Love, , (according to http://gawker.com/5901050/courtney-love-accuses-dave-grohl-of-seducing-her-daughter , or http://jezebel.com/5882326/a-tale-of-two-courtneys) @cbabymichelle, you find this quote from a pink floyd song:
the bleeding hearts and artists let me get away with murder
I mean it is so obvious and makes so much sense in every word with all the murder scenario that it blows my mind. But i see her like a very unreal person that likes to test the limits of situations and people, especially after watching “Soaked” and recognizing the type of person she was because we all know that people like that EXISTS. This is so depressing! I Love both bands and don´t want their music to remind me of such dark stuff.
I mean it´s the profile quote for the account! If i was in her situation i wouldn´t quote that
Doll Parts
Written by Courtney Love,
who reconstructed all her parts, as beneficiary to the life insurance award of Cobain’s fingerprint-free cluicide (was this a ryder to the policy, which usually does not pay out for suicide???)… plastic parts for a plastic demeanor and plastic public image, IMHO. And I’m sorry… I loved Hole, but I always hated that bitch. Karma’s a bitch too Mis-Love!
I am
Doll eyes
Doll mouth
Doll legs
I am
Doll arms
Big veins
Dog bait
Yeah, they really want you
They really want you, they really do
Yeah, they really want you
They really want you, and I do too
I want to be the girl with the most cake
I love him so much, it just turns to hate
I fake it so real I am beyond fake
And someday you will ache like I ache
…Someday you will ache like I ache…
I am doll parts
Bad skin
Doll heart
It stands
For knife
For the rest
Of my life
Yeah, they really want you
They really want you, they really do
Yeah, they really want you
They really want you, but I do too
I want to be the girl with the most cake
He only loves those things because he loves to see them break
I fake it so real I am beyond fake
And someday you will ache like I ache
…Someday you will ache like I ache…
It’s all right there in these lyrics, and for that matter, it’s in the entire lyrical composition of Live Through This……..Kurt knew what was coming. He wrote it, tried to escape but knew it was hopeless. His lyrics are the damning proof…….give it a fresh listen.
Kurt was apparently so scared of being exposed as a fake and he ended up marrying one. It’s a living nightmare in which he drew to himself all that he despised and feared. I really want to know why Jessica Hopper, who was apparently residing with Dewitt at Cobain’s residence AT THE TIME of his supposed suicide was never questioned at length? She said people enteredd and exited the house whilst she was in bed. Who were these people?What does she know? And why is she still so defensive about the events that transpired so many years late? If my good friend died in suspicious circumstances I’d still be asking questions today and I’d be an open book about what I knew. it just doesn’t add up. I don’t know if it was Courtney but I think there were a lot of people who were jealous of Kurt including his old so-called friends from Olympia. I think they need to be investigated as well.
I have never seen either movie about Kurt , even though I liked his music. Somthing I did read which I found interesting about his death were the bullets, my husband being a farmer knows a lot about guns. The pictures that have been recently shown showed bullets in a box which were 2 3/4 , size but the police report said the one that killed him was 2 1/4 ,this could be a typo mistake on the police’s behalf , however this is a major evidence mistake. CLove and her band of cronies missed this , so why hasn’t any levelled headed police officer questioned this. If people enlarge the box of bullets placed squarely at his feet you can read the size of the bullets, three missing . However the ones in the gun were not the same according to the police reports. I’m starting to question why has it taken so long with all the evidence that this case along side Kristen Pfaffs case hasn’t been opened long ago. There’s more in this than meets the eye!
I wish Kurt & Kristen had ended up dating each other. I gauantee Kurt and Kristen would have made an awesome album together. Everything points to foul play about Kurt & Kristen’s death’s, Courtney’s a suspect, so how in the hell could she get a close friend to do the autopsy on both of them? Fucking money that’s how!! Unfucking believable. Why couldn’t Courtney Love just divorce Kurt Cobain and get money that way? Well when judgement day comes for Courtney she’s going to be all alone then, and no money in the world will help her. FUCKIN MURDERED 2 AWESOME PEOPLE!! YOU FUCKIN LOSER BITCH!! JUST REMEMBER, YOU WERE NOTHING UNTIL KURT WAS IN YOUR LIFE, AND THAT’S HOW YOU THANK HIM. Some people have a change of heart, that’s when you let them go and wish the best for them, not kill them. Kurt & Kristen R.I.P.
I wish Kurt never know Courtney. I wish Kurt never love Courtney. I wish Kurt only love Kristen. What a perfect dream.
prenup
Right on my dude
I thought this was strange too, caues i thought I read that the when he bought the gun he had it preloaded with tree rounds of light load bird shot. (cause if the gun was for protection, why wouldnt he have bought rounds that same day, and why wouldnt he have preloaded it so it was ready in an emergency?) The crime scene finds bullets with a dated receipt inthe bag, but no one confirms witnessing him buy bullets. Is it comon to keep the receipt in the bag when you buy ammo? I also only just recently read about the ammo on the scene.
I pray Kurt and Kristine get justice, I wish he had escaped alive , left the scene with Kristine, at lease she was a caring loving human being not domeone totally devoid of a conscience and full of lies and deception.. Look at the trail of dead people behind C L , the all knew alot.. Kristine was missing pages in her diary chonicling the day Kurt went missing, we could get some insights from her testimony if she was alive.
I have read a lot on this and not made a judgement based on one oppinion. There is just too much evidence and inconsistencies pointing to murder. Her own father released a letter written by Kurt which was released by the police where he calls Courtney names. I’ve also heard an original version demo of one of nirvana’s songs and it’s talking about divorce and hate in the lyrics. It adds up with everything the private detective says and all the pieces come together. I’ve heard that she hated Kristen because her and Kurt were close. I also saw hole live at a festival weeks after Kurts death and she was acting weird. I know she is a heroin addict and weird anyway but something wasn’t right. She was in UK rock magazines NME and melody maker weeks after his death hinting about the new guys she was sleeping with and even interviewers were saying ‘Kurt isn’t even cold yet’. Her own father who admittedly isn’t a nice person himself is convinced she killed Kurt and her ex boyfriend has talked about her and backed up things. I don’t understand how these cases have never been ‘re opened. I know police can be corrupt but come on to the right thing and investigate fully make things right. Courtney is talenless and her voice is awful live so Kristen was totally right there. She’s a psycho who has friends in high places and it wouldn’t suprise me one bit if she paid people off. No way someone who knows her personally should have been involved at all in any part of the investigation. It looks as if Kurt and Kristen both for thselves clean so they could run away and be together.I’ve even read her saying that Kurt phones her from a phone box whilst he was missing and commented on her new album? He was dead at the time. She lies so much she slips up all the time.
well there is a ton of child sex abuse in her past ..child trafficking for which she as a girl child was hated and blamed by all…i think this is why Curt had compassion. she was so messed up by this and no one cared they did it and or blamed the child for it….it might be time to heal or at least be compassionate as to why Love ended up being the way she has become. it’s classic mental health brutal effects from all that child sex abuse…..her epstein involvement and thinking Hustler mag guy was okay and to be defended when he is the biggest incester and massive girl child sex abuser child rapist promoter ….she doesn’t know any thing else in life and the public loves that guy and makes him richer etc …drew Barrymore child sex exploited did the movie that blamed Amy fisher for child sex abuse/ pedophiles and sex trafficking pedos….who filmed her and was payed by NY to hand over the child porn videos pf them pedophiles on her…to convict her …not the johms nor the pimps npr the wife that protected those men ….the pub;ic loved drew depicting her on the porn view way so as to hate her and blame her…for their own sick turn ons when these liyyle girls are massively sex slaved and are groomed and conditioned to defend it and support it eyc …what ends up giving is their minds …they end up tortured by mental illness issues/ bi polar hell/ rage etc ….i feel for Love even though to survive she lost her ability to feel for most others in life…she is the little girl sex slaved and conditioned not this thing she became…which is a person deeply damaged and incapable of really living. i understand how cruel she became to other girls sometimes etc ….but i cannot take my eyes off what should have been in the spotlight and hated by all of culture….the sex abuse of little girls and the effects on their lives. …and minds.
Don’t forget el Duce mention a guy named Allen (Allen wrench) in a interview and a week later he was hit by a train when really he was murdered .
I see that no one here is a heroin addict. Heroin addicts drop like flies. Someone wrote how many of Courtney’s friends/family have to die this way before someone pays attention. Well, until she’s totally free from substances, particularly opiates. I’m an opiate addict, and we go through these phases of groups dying together. It is an odd thing, but it is a real thing. One thing you can be certain of, if someone gets out of rehab and they do relapse, they have a huge chance of dying. They always think their tolerance is the same, so they do their old amount, and they accidentally kill themselves. But beyond that, you guys do see the other obvious difference between these two deaths, right? Hello. A shotgun. In fact, the ONLY similarity IS Courtney. Look, I can’t stand her. But something I can’t stand less is common sense.
I think the shotgun or whatever kind of gun came into play cause the helpful overdose from someone didn’t kill him, then they had to find an extra insurance he would die. If it wasn’t Courtney, the person who’s supposed to make sure he does too much heroine doesn’t want to disappoint COurtney do they? Would you? And as a fellow former user or just someone who watches the news, you know an addict who wants more drugs -there’s plenty of people who would kill someone for their next high or $50! The part that should satisfy your common sense fix even more is that you must have missed the detail that there were NO FINGERPRINTS on Kurt’s gun or pen for his “suicide” note. There you go! As someone above said, dead people don’t wipe their prints off!!! Lol CL is ugly inside and out, I got a bad feeling from her from the start and I was there from the beginning at their age when they became famous, she’s pure evil and thought something bad would happen around her before it did. It’s in her eyes showing from her soul. Pure yuck of bleach blonde hair , red lipstick, smeared black eye make up – never looked cute to me. Anyhoo, stay strong ! This is all eerie and gross!
I too, used to be an opiate addict. Though I have been clean for almost 2 years now, I will never forget what it was like to be so dependant on a substance. Kurts death doesn’t add up because anybody who was ever a true addict knows that its emotionally impossible to have suicidal thoughts on copious amounts of heroin, yet alone to hold a shotgun of that size. Watch soaked in bleach. It goes into much further depth, including the physics of the situation. That’s not even including the other bizarre findings from Tom Grant and other witnesses…such as a paper with handwriting practice sheets, trying to copy kurts handwriting found in courtney backpack. I was a fan of both Nirvana and hole growing up. I used to defend courtney, because I once believed that the media was just being over zealous. That is, until I watched soaked in bleach. After that, my perspective has completely changed, and upon personal further research following, I have come to the confident conclusion that Kurt was murdered, and that courtney was the mastermind behind it. I think that the case needs to be reopened and that those involved including the SPD need to be put behind bars for murder and corruption.
“Common sense” is not what’s missing here. You made the point that most commenters here don’t know what it’s like to be a heroin addict so what you refer to as common sense is not common at all to most peopl here. Common sense should tell you that.
Suicidal friends I have had (I have a good deal of friends involved in the Atlanta music scene who use) take hot shots to kill themselves. As someone who knows about using heroin, you should have the “common sense” to know that if someone has as much heroin in their system as Kurt did, they’re not going to be feeling the suicidal pain at that time nor have their wits about them enough to pick up a shotgun and also shoot themselves in the head. That makes no sense whatsoever. Why not just overdose? Have you even read the evidence about missing finger prints on the gun and the way it fell when he was left handed? I suggest you do some more research before you decide to play the cool contrarian devil’s advocate. The devil doesn’t need an advocate. Kurt and Kristen do.
amen sister
Can’t you start a petition it report it to police? I’m from Europe so I don’t know how it works over there, but there must be one person in power who can get that investigated properly
I was a heroin addict for a very long time, and yeah it’s true people do drop like flies. Some of the most amazing, enlightened, and beautiful human beings are now gone, but it comes with the territory. I hate Courtney Love, she insecure, overbearing, and just full of jealousy and negativity. When she feels she’s starting to lose control, she’s the type that will do anything to take it back. Nomatter what she will always be #1 to herself. She’s not capable of putting anyone’s wants and needs above her own. She’ll never change. Maybe one day when our clocks stop ticking we will know the truth. Until that day comes all we can do is speculate. It’s pretty unusual that out of a group of random people, 99.9% of us truely believe that Courtney is responsible for Kurt’s death if not both of them. I think that speaks volumes, but one day we will know for sure
bless your heart…i wish you all the good the world holds. it took grit to write this here. You have a lot of beauty in you. Most people don’t in the human race….remember that about yourself.
This is very eerie, and certainly a strange coincidence. It’s hard to say with Kristen for sure, but I can’t blame anyone for being skeptical.
Although with Kurt, I can see murder being a very realistic possibility. The stakes were high, money involved, and Kurt was obviously tired of being a popular commercial rocker. Turning down Lollapalooza may have been the breaking point and from there the plan unfolded.
The suicide note always felt strange to me, he made a point to say he didn’t feel the excitement playing music anymore, but almost gave that as his primary reason. That seemed peculiar to me.
Anyone here read the biography by Charles R Cross? He interviewed Kurt’s friends and family, it’s called ‘Heavier than Heaven’. This book suggests he was from a very suicidal family in a town with a high suicide rate, he told a friend when he was 14 he was going to become a rock star then blow his own brains out. Had a tough early life and seems to have suffered from chronic depression, probably made much worse by his addictions. I agree everything about the investigation doesn’t add up but the guy seemed desperate to escape many things in his life, fame, addiction, dealers, his wife, his past etc etc. True Courtney had much to gain from his death but she was becoming a star in her own right so why not just divorce him? Ok you can then argue he earned more money for her after his death but murder? Seems too drastic. Everyone loves a conspiracy theory right?
Yeh sure bex. A book that was basically co written by Courtney love and has caused controversy as it had included fiction in a non fiction book…. At the same time, Cross’ desire for the book to be as complete as possible meant that he occasionally accepted secondhand (and incorrect) information as fact.[4] The book was criticized as being a collaboration between Love and Cross by friends.
also people say she married him as a star…he was not a star then and she had way more money than him when they married. just to be fair and accurate. i also wish more people cared about that depression of his now…that is the biggest part of what destroyed his life. …murder or not….these mental health issues NEED more light on them and much more compassion and understanding of those who suffer from this…many lives would be spared or saved….thank you for raising this point.
He absolutely was famous. He became famous in 1991 and married CL in 1992. It was international news and why they married at the beach while only telling a few it was to happen. Were you even alive then? There is no possible way you didn’t know this if you were alive. You couldn’t have run from the news if you tried.
3 separate events, 2 common denominators. Rome, Kurt, Courtney, and Eric Erlandson present. Seattle, Courtney and Eric each have unaccounted time, enough to hop on the private jet at their disposal and get from L.A. to Seattle and kill Kurt. Seattle, Kirsten’s death. Last person to see her alive is Eric Erlandson. Law officials will tell you there’s TOO MANY COINCIDENCES!!!
Eric E is not pure for sure. https://twitter.com/eric_erlandson/status/707648408320937984
Wow. I never saw this until now. There is definitely something ‘fishy’ about such a senseless tweet.
The tweet got deleted
I call to Reopen the cases. Prove beyond a doubt that it was suicide and everyone will shut the hell up. Did your job in the first place SPD and we wouldn’t be here asking this question.
Did you call?
You people calling this a conspiracy are all on CRACK. I can tell you, as a recovering heroin addict, the most vulnerable time for relapse and overdose is when you come out of rehab. You’ve been clean for thirty to ninety days and your tolerance is decreased. You want to have a goodbye-party with your drug of choice (“just one more time, I promise…”), and you hide your urges from everyone around you, your family, your lover, and your therapist, because you’ve convinced yourself that you are in “recovery” even though you are craving the drug non-fucking-stop. Back in your old environment, with all your using friends and cues are all back in full force. Just being in the room that you used to shoot up in is enough to make you want to use, because addiction to heroin is all about the ritual (I used to fix in the half-bathroom of my condo, and just that color paint was enough to make me want to use). You’ll take a “needle fix” if that’s all you can find, but heroin addicts are extremely resourceful, and soon you’ve reached out to your connection. It used to take three bags to get that flash that’s better than sex, better than money, and better than love, that only heroin can give, so that’s what you fix, but now your tolerance is low from not using for three months and you overdose. It’s really that simple.
Excuse my mistakes i dont speak english.
“that flash that’s better than sex, better than money, and better than love, that only heroin can give” This “needle fix” could be hated for be most a fisical need than a incoparable placer? Like a guilty placer that fix you at all?, or like a fuel needed to continue?,… i like to do this question cause it´s not logical to blow your head with a shotgun just after recieve that “fix”. NEVER in the history of heroine, an adict who are also suicidal determined to end his life, has used a gun to kill himself just after injecting heroine, Doesn´t have any sense, would be like jump from the top of a bulding and shoot yourself in the head while you´re falling.
Excellent point
but if you want to make sure the gun does not leave you crippled/ mamed/ deformed etc you may very well take the lethal heroin first then shot to make sure the herion will kill you if the gun does not. he used small pellets that usually do not bliw the skull out and might have been extra worried since many people have survived maned and cripples and with their faces blown clean off yet they live and live for decades….poor people bless them …so if he was intent on dying it made sense to take the heroin first to back up the attemp if the gun did not kill him …that does indeed make sense …ps you wrote well …for English not being your first language….good job.
‘You people calling this a conspiracy are all on CRACK’ – No; just normal, reasonable, open-minds trying to sift the bizarre tangled facts & lies, & left still wondering why it doesn’t add up? It’s impossible to know how Kristen felt, whether you think you’ve been there or not, but I’m not sure the missing journal pages is suspicious; if someone wanted evidence gone wouldn’t they take the whole book, rather than make it obvious which dates that were missing? Who knows.. God help her family & friends. RIP, RIG x
Except Kurt was only in rehab for 1 day tops before he hopped the wall. He definitely was not fully detoxed and I am sure he had “scored” and “fixed” in the few days between leaving rehab and his “Final dose”. The short of it his “tolerance” would still be there at the time of his final injection.
He would be using the same amount because he never got clean. The thing about dope is nomatter what you do whatever’s necessary to not get sick aka withdrawals it feels so fucking bad, I’m sure Kurt never put himself in a position to be sick, it’s just not an option because you can’t do anything when you feel like that except use to take away the sickness. It’s a really shitty cycle, the only thing that makes you feel better is the same shit that makes you feel so sick…
my heart is with you ,thank you for your incisive input. it was brave of you to write this and murder or not we all need to hear you and your keen facts. you are telling a truth and also sometimes something deeply depresses you and you end up using again when you had no intention…mental health issues such as depression are big influencers in why someone starts using again or for ‘ just one last time’.
…And I’d like to add, that is DEFINITELY POSSIBLE to be acutely suicidal while in the throes of addiction. Not only is it possible, it is highly likely. At the “peak” of my addiction, I just wanted to die. I would write on the bathroom mirror, in my own blood, “kill me now, please, kill me now…” Never before have I felt such despair.
awwww i feel so much for you and applaud your courage in educating us all. You are priceless…never forget that.
Courtney Love is the Suge Knight of Punk Rock.
Both, ruthless and greedy. Suge is resposible for three, death’s. Easy E (Eric), Tupak & Biggie, (Christopher).
Both CL & SK, planting seeds that would ultimately break friendships. Both, positioned themselves, to take full advantage, of their situations. COLD BLOODED MURDER!
Courtney love is a cold blood calculated money hungry junky. I knew Kirk Cobain. He was pretty quiet about sleeping with Kristen. I heard him say while snickering that courtney would shit if she knew. He got mad as hell when she started flaunting he’s money, he said repeatedly that she became a turn off when it came to the lifestyle she wanted. He was falling in love with Kristen. R.I.P. brother. I know the truth..
And F is so brain washed by C that it’s sad. F ex husband was very lucky. RIP Kirk. We know. We will never forget.
How did you know Kurt? I totally agree with your comment though.
Truth…..Murder was the case x2
listen to Mexican Seafood off of Incesticide, its all about heroin !!!!
I hope this thread never ends. It’s been an amazing read, spanning six years! I’ll add my .02. I grew up just on the outskirts of a very rough town. I’ve seen more than a few friends and acquaintances go down the junkie path, whether it be crack, coke or heroin. “Kill them with their poison” is without a doubt the most common way to murder someone and get away with it. There are countless people chained up and buried in basements in my hometown. That or they’ll put a little rat poison in your shit. Very easy to do. Cops have no real way of following up on such a death, even if they do care. RIP Kristen and Kurt.
This is so, so sad, ’94 was a bleak year for people who loved good music, even far away in the UK with only the weekly Music ‘papers for info, it affected us – still does really, tho’ I avoid thinking about it mostly as the more I read the more it sounds like they were both killed, when they should’ve been allowed to live, & still be with us. It’s hard to believe anyone would do that, & just for ca$h, but it does happen. If so, the truth’ll out one day, no money in the world can buy an escape, & no pockets in a shroud 😉 RIP, RIG x
This is more so about Kurt rather than Kristen, but the one thing that occurs to me, is if Kurt Cobain had been dead for nearly 3 days (allegedly dies on 5 April and is “found” on 8 April) why is the skin on his hands so clear and fresh-looking? So fresh in fact that the blue tint of his veins are still visible in the photographs of his hands and lower arm. Being dead for 3 days would usually cause your skin to take on a mottled appearance, wouldn’t it? Perhaps someone with better medical / postmortem knowledge can explain this to me? I know Seattle is a cool climate, but wouldn’t here be some evidence of putrefaction? Any death specialists here? The whole scenario around CL is a tragedy; she devours and spits out the good in people. In person, Courtney behaves like a sociopath, so nothing would surprise me about her…
Yes. By day three decomposition would have began but, depending upon the manner of death, the body may not reveal this from the outside to the inside.
Wow, this is cray cray.. idk 4sure either way, suicide or murder and I have gone back and forth on the issue ever since. I appreciate all the comments and it goes to show the love of fans of music. No doubt that Courtney and Kurt was a deadly combination. I have much experience as an off n on heroin junkie, and would like to let ya’ll know that heroin addicts know how tolerances go up and down, I also know how addicts lie about using, soberity and relapse. The comments above are valid and I know that if I did a shot of heroin, the last thing I would be thinking about is suicide. I don’t believe that Kurt was clean and sober at the time of his death regardless of what anyone reports. He had just left a treatment facility a week prior to his death. Heroin addicts don’t go to treatment, clean and sober. I love the music that Kurt + Nirvana did, but depression is a real thing and clearly, by his lyrics, he had his share. I don’t know all the details but it does look very suspicious, huge estate, greedy bitch and the account of El duche. I mean why would he say that and put his own life at risk. Next thing you know is he winds up dead, hit by a train. Also I know that being an addict, overdose is a good cover-up for murder. Not only that but suicide by heroin is generally extremely uncomfortable.. from all I have learned, I can’t say for sure that it’s a murder conspiracy, but I know that when you associate creepy people, like Courtney, creepy things happen, but most of all I am saddened that we have lost so many great people do to dope and addiction not to mention the lost soul that are still here due to the damage of sub. abuse. Makes me think of song, look at the needle and the damage done. I’m sure that Courtney will always be unsatisfied with life and I am a fan of hole as well but no doubt, Kurt was in a completely different leauge as far as artistic talent. I also grew up in Minneapolis where Kristen was from, now living in S.D. my regards to her and her loved ones. Either way, heroin is a bitch and it destroys lives as I lost my daughter to it. I’m greatful that the music lives on. Rip Kurt n Kristen.
Things are still in motion.
Kurts plane ticket was CANCELED.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1hURpyUsEg // Posted: 25th may 2019.
Private detective Tom Grants Case PDF http://www.brendanhunt.com/uploads/6/3/4/2/6342789/tomgrantcasemanual.pdf
The reason the case isn’t opened is MONEY and several suspects is INVOLVED.
Can’t we open a petition, call the police over and over, find a powerful person that helps? There must be something one can do, I’m from Europe so I don’t know how it works in the US. Also: why doesn’t Krist help?
99.9% of people who OD on heroin are found with the needle still in their arm. Kurt’s needle was put back into his little stash box. His long sleeves weren’t rolled up like you’d expect they were both down and buttoned. He had something like 6x the lethal amount, maybe more but regardless he would’ve died with the needles in his arm not to mention he wouldn’t have been able to shoot himself. So much bullshit. Was Kristen found with a needle in her arm?
[…] What Did Exactly Happen To Hole’s Bassist Kristen Pfaff, Who Died 19 Years Ago This Month? […]
The situation with El Duce creeps me tf out. Courtney offered him $50,000 to blow Kurt’s head off and said that he wasn’t going to do it. He then mentions the name ‘Allen Wrench’, the person that he thinks murdered Kurt, and supposedly a week later after that interview, Duce was killed. Courtney Love is such a f*cking evil person and really should be behind bars. She used money as a way to manipulate people. I also remember her saying to her PI (Tom Grant): “Save the American icon, Tom.” in a sarcastic manner. It’s obvious that dumb b*tch didn’t give a shit about Kurt and only wanted to be with him because of his fame and wealth. I’m praying this case gets re-opened because everyone including myself wants to know the honest truth of what really happened. There is heaps and heaps of evidence that results in Kurt being murdered and the Seattle Police hasn’t even considered looking into it (the fingerprints, the people close to Kurt etc.) Rest in peace to both Kurt Cobain and Kristen Pfaff.
I wrote a comment in 2017. 2 years later, several documentaries, I’m convinced she did it, it’s obvious. They do say if you cross paths with a psychopath, you better get away or they’ll ruin your life. Tragic for the families involved. Wouldn’t let it drop if my kids were murdered.
What if…..this tragic event was all staged by the brilliant mind of Kurt??? It is so easy these days to fake your own death and change your identity, especially if you’ve got lots of money….think about it…..me personally If i was a celebrity i would want to see the worlds reaction to my own death while I’m kicking back on a privately owned island…Kurt lived under a bridge…..then lived in a house far more greater than his bridge…ask yourself this……where do you think he was happier at, under his bridge or that house?
That’s a comforting thought, even though some say he didn’t sleep under that bridge. But people like Krist would know, wouldn’t they? In the Seattle interview in 1993 they even talk about rumours of Kurt being dead, Dave mentions he blew his head off.
Occam’s Razor: Pfaff was a heroin addict who had gotten clean & had a relapse, which is the most dangerous time in terms of overdose potential. Her tolerance was low & she tried to use her usual dose resulting in her death.
The number of people required to pull off these “murders” would be too complicated; someone would slip up & tell over all these years (especially when you’re dealing with junkies). It’s too big a leap to believe Courtney Love had all this power over the police department, media & all these murderers in Seattle. It makes for a good movie script but is not realistic in any way. She strikes me as a Borderline Personality who was very abusive to Kurt on an emotional level, definitely cheated on him & drove him over the edge in that sense. But to actually believe she had that kind of power over all these other people & would risk life in prison to kill this additional woman for no personal gain after bumping off her “main target/meal ticket” is just absurd.
Also: This is “Yoko broke up the Beatles” on steroids. Kurt would hate the sexism in all of it. People painted Courtney as the bad witch & him as an angel when he was ALIVE so this started long before his suicide. He alludes to it in “Serve the Servants” (if she floats than she is not/a witch like we thought) and in Montage of Heck while reading angry fan letters. But y’all have taken it to new & pathetic depths.
I’ll be surprised if this dissenting comment even gets approved but here goes nothing.
I wish you were right, but she even has connections to Prince Andrew
Right on my dude
He would be using the same amount because he never got clean. The thing about dope is nomatter what you do whatever’s necessary to not get sick aka withdrawals it feels so fucking bad, I’m sure Kurt never put himself in a position to be sick, it’s just not an option because you can’t do anything when you feel like that except use to take away the sickness. It’s a really shitty cycle, the only thing that makes you feel better is the same shit that makes you feel so sick…
OMG, something has just occurred to me…… there was an article I read, that the electrician found the body, and saw the “suicide” note, that said….I LOVE YOU, I LOVE YOU…..WTF, he didn’t have access to inside the green house, (even if he did, a person that finds a dead body, be lines the hell outta there, the don’t stick around to find and read a suicide note) so just more BS to make the “suicide” believable.
K&K, plus others were definitely murdered. Sad, just sad!
And another thing…..he wanted away from her nasty ass, DIVORCE, she made the suicide narrative, she made him die (murdered) she didn’t give a rats ass about him, only wanted his money.
She knew about KP, and that’s why she was murdered too.
CL is a black widow spider with fangs.
I absolutely believe both Kurt & Kristen were murdered, and I would love to see the case reopened. However ABSOLUTELY nothing would change if it’s the Seattle police department that reopened it, cops will Never admit that one of or any of their own kind were ever wrong. We need an outside independent investigation to ever really hope for any actual answers. R.I.P Kurt and Kristen, the 2 of you were and still are Rock n’ Roll!!!
Aren’t there institutions in the US above local police departments? Here we would give it to judges/the police on
a level above
I always believed that the simplest answer was the truth – that he had surrounded himself with a lot of very dysfunctional people who were doing things that made little sense to anyone other than themselves and in the midst of it all, he went through a bad couple of days of withdrawal, while in the midst of a deep depression, while feeling the chaos of his life and facing decisions that he swore to never make – becoming an idol celebrity, divorcing his wife – both things he seemed to detest greatly throughout his entire life – and he killed himself.
But just in the last couple of years, especially with the new photographs revealed and the information about the gun he used I’ve become convinced that there is absolutely more to the story than what has been published – primarily I just can’t see how that gun would have ended up in the position it was in unless somebody moved it there – either the police or an accomplice who was with him at the time of his death. Most likely he did kill himself but somebody altered the scene for reasons the general public wouldn’t know or the police did a really horrible job of documenting the scene – (which is also very likely based on the rest of the “investigation” and others going on during this same time period).
All of that said – I do like the comment that was made regarding the possibility that maybe it doesn’t all add up because he conceived it himself and didn’t really die – which is a bit of a nice thing to think about. It’s so improbable and the least likely scenario of all possible scenario’s but really – what real evidence is there that he didn’t fake his death? It’s not like we can go back and prove it now – I don’t think they kept any of the DNA and the coroner was friends with Courtney – he was cremated. They say they’ll never release the full crime scene photos and there was a suspiciously accurate (in terms of the floor pattern, the layout of the room, items in the room) ‘leaked’ photo that has been floating around for years before the publicly released photos that show the same scene from other angles but the shirt he is wearing is different – also odd because there are photos of him alive wearing both the shirt from the “leaked” photo and the one in the officially released photos – and everything matches up otherwise between them – if it was a fake photo, it had to have been done by somebody with intimate knowledge of what the crime scene actually looked like – cause they even had the correct floor pattern – everything. It’s really wild.
So I think one day after we are all long gone and nobody is around to keep protecting the truth, the public will find out the truth – either that he was ‘helped’, he was found before the electrician found him and that person altered the scene………… or maybe he spent the rest of his days on a beach – next to an ocean with no memory….that would be nice – and maybe in some way, in some realm – that is the truth.
Case notes for Kristen were destroyed around Y2K. Washington state has an edict where they can destroy documents after six years.
Watching this youtube documentary from the eyes of PI Tom Grant has me convinced Courtney murdered him. Not sure about Kristen though. Please watch this documentary on Kurt. It’s a must.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXrZp9bNS2s